Journals of the Senate
46 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1997, Canada
Journals of the Senate
Issue 17
Thursday, November 6, 1997
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Bonnell, Bosa, Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Cochrane, Cogger, Cohen, Comeau, Cools, Corbin, DeWare, Doody, Doyle, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Forest, Forrestall, Ghitter, Gigantès, Grafstein, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Haidasz, Hébert, Hervieux-Payette, Jessiman, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, MacDonald, Maheu, Marchand, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Petten, Phillips, Poulin, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, Simard, Stanbury, Stewart, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan
PRAYERS
As an expression of respect to Canada's War Veterans and War dead, tributes were paid and the Senate observed a minute of silence.
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Tabling of Documents
The Honourable Senator Carstairs tabled the following:1997 Report of the National Forum on Canada's International Relations (Asia-Pacific).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-236S.
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, P.C., presented the following:THURSDAY, November 6, 1997
The Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations has the honour to present its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee reports that in relation to its permanent reference, section 19 of the Statutory Instruments Act,, R.S.C. 1985, c. S-22, the Committee was previously empowered "to study the means by which Parliament can better oversee the government regulatory process and in particular to enquire into and report upon:1. the appropriate principles and practices to be observed(a) in the drafting of powers enabling delegates of Parliament to make subordinate laws;
(b) in the enactment of statutory instruments;
(c) in the use of executive regulation - including delegated powers and subordinate laws;
and the manner in which Parliamentary control should be effected in respect of the same;
2. the role, functions and powers of the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations."Your Committee recommends that the same order of reference together with the evidence adduced thereon during the last, six Parliaments be again referred to it.
Your Committee informs both Houses of Parliament that the criteria it will use for the review and scrutiny of statutory instruments are the following:
Whether any Regulation or other statutory instrument within its terms of reference, in the judgement of the Committee:1. is not authorized by the terms of the enabling legislation or has not complied with any condition set forth in the legislation;
2. is not in conformity with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms or the Canadian Bill of Rights;
3. purports to have retroactive effect without express authority having been provided for in the enabling legislation;
4. imposes a charge on the public revenues or requires payment to be made to the Crown or to any other authority, or prescribes the amount of any such charge or payment, without express authority having been provided for in the enabling legislation;
5. imposes a fine, imprisonment or other penalty without express authority having been provided for in the enabling legislation;
6. tends directly or indirectly to exclude the jurisdiction of the courts without express authority having been provided for in the enabling legislation;
7. has not complied with the Statutory Instruments Act with respect to transmission, registration or publication;
8. appears for any reason to infringe the rule of law;
9. trespasses unduly on rights and liberties;
10. makes the rights and liberties of the person unduly dependent on administrative discretion or is not consistent with the rules of natural justice;
11. makes some unusual or unexpected use of the powers conferred by the enabling legislation;
12. amounts to the exercise of a substantive legislative power properly the subject of direct parliamentary enactment;
13. is defective in its drafting or for any other reason requires elucidation as to its form or purport.
Your Committee recommends that its quorum be fixed at, 4 members, provided that both Houses are represented whenever a vote, resolution or other decision is taken, and that the Joint Chairmen be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and authorize the printing thereof so long as 3 members are present, provided that both Houses are represented; and, that the Committee have power to engage the services of such expert staff, and such stenographic and clerical staff as may be required.
Your Committee further recommends to the Senate that it be empowered to sit during sittings and adjournments of the Senate.
Your Committee, which was also authorized by the Senate to incur expenses in connection with its permanent reference relating to the review and scrutiny of statutory instruments, reports, pursuant to Rule 104 of the Rules of the Senate, that the expenses of the Committee (Senate portion) during the Second Session of the Thirty-fifth Parliament were as follows:
| Professional Services | $ 59,545.00 |
| Transportation | $ 410.00 |
| Other, Miscellaneous | $ 39,241.00 |
| Total | $ 99,196.00 |
Respectfully submitted,
CÉLINE HERVIEUX-PAYETTE
Joint Chair
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hébert, that the Report be adopted now.After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Milne, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, presented its Second Report (Bill C-13, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act ) without amendment.The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Maheu presented the following:THURSDAY, November 6, 1997
The Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders has the honour to present its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee notes Order in Council P.C. 1997-1492 dated October 17, 1997 in which His Excellency, the, Governor General in Council, appointed an Usher of the Senate.Your Committee recommends that the Senate recognize the Usher of the Senate under that title as the officer entitled to carry out the functions and enjoy the privileges of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod for purposes of law, under the, Rules of the Senate and for all other purposes.
Respectfully submitted,
SHIRLEY MAHEU
Chair
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Forest, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Government Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu:That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, November 18, 1997, at 2:00 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator Haidasz, P.C., presented petitions:Of Residents of Canada concerning the protection of, con science in medical procedures.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to Rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Carstairs tabled the following:Reply to Question No. 35, dated October 1, 1997, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny, respecting the Alternative Fuels Act-Department of National Revenue.-1/36-237S.
Reply to Question No. 54, dated October 1, 1997, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny, respecting the Alternative Fuels Act-Department of Fisheries and Oceans.-1/36-238S.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Motions
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the, next sitting.Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.OTHER BUSINESS
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.Consideration of the First Report of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages (quorum and meetings), presented in the Senate on October 29, 1997.
The Honourable Senator Carstairs for the Honourable, Senator Losier-Cool moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Consideration of the First Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (Usher of the Senate), presented in the Senate earlier this day.The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, that the Report be adopted.
Debate.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella tabled the following:Orders in Council P.C. 1997-1488, dated October 14, 1997, and P.C. 1997-1492, dated October 17, 1997, respecting the Usher of the Senate.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-239S.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the adoption of the First Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders, (Usher of the Senate).After debate,
The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on division.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the adoption of the First Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders, (Usher of the Senate). A Point of Order was raised as to whether the decision of the Senate to refuse adjournment of the debate was in order.Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
Honourable senators, if there are no other comments on the point of order, I am prepared to rule now.The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton has said that surely I would sympathize with him. My problem is that my job is not to sympathize; my job is to rule according to the Rules of the Senate, and those rules say nothing about when an adjournment can be taken. It can always be taken. Therefore, I am in the hands of the Senate.
Under the rules, the Senate has the right to refuse to grant the adjournment of a debate, if it so chooses, at any time. The rules do not address that matter. Perhaps it is something that the Rules Committee should look at. This may well be something that has been missed. At the moment, however, the rules are silent. Therefore, an acceptance or refusal of a request for adjournment is within the rules. I cannot rule otherwise.
I should like to address the point raised by the Honourable Senator Cools. When I asked whether leave was granted, as had been requested by the committee chairman, I did not hear any one say "No" to that question. I did hear "No" later, as to whether the motion could be put, but concerning leave, I did not hear anyone say "No". I have checked with my staff and they did not hear anything, either.
In future, please, when someone does not want something to be done, please say "No" clearly, so that we can hear. The staff are here to check, as I am. Frankly, I did not hear it. I heard it later.
In my opinion, I cannot accept the point of order. The debate may continue.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the adoption of the First Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (Usher of the Senate).After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that the Report be not now adopted but that it be amended by deleting, in line 3 of the second paragraph thereof, the words "under that title as the officer", and replacing them with the words "under the title of Usher of the Black Rod".Debate.
A Point of Order was raised as to the acceptability of the motion in amendment.
The Speaker reserved his decision.
The Senate adjourned at pleasure to resume at the call of the bell at approximately 5:00 p.m.
The sitting resumed.SPEAKER'S RULING
Honourable senators have asked for a ruling on whether the amendment to the motion is in order. I have considered this matter carefully. I do not find the amendment to be contradic tory. It, indeed, offers an alternative which, in my opinion, makes it a valid amendment. I, therefore, declare that the amend ment is in order. I shall entertain further debate. The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the adoption of the First Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (Usher of the Senate),And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that the Report be not now adopted but that it be amended by deleting, in line 3 of the second paragraph thereof, the words "under that title as the officer", and replacing them with "under the title of Usher of the Black Rod".
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Gigantès moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu, that the motion in amendment be amended by deleting, in the French text, the words "Huissier de la Verge noire" and replacing them with "Huissier du Bâton noir".After debate,
The question being put on the sub-amendment, it was adopted.The question being put on the motion in amendment, as amended, it was adopted.
The question then being put on the motion of the Honourable Senator Maheu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the adoption of the First Report, as amended, of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (Usher of the Senate), it was adopted.
Other
Orders No. 1 (motion), 5 (inquiry) and 3 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons in the following words:THURSDAY, November 6, 1997
ORDERED,-That a Message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours that Mrs. Bradshaw, Messrs. Brien, Byrne, Caplan et DeVillers, Mmes. Dockrill, Finestone and Folco, Messrs. Goldring, Mark, Matthews, McGuire, O'Brien, Pagtakhan, Plamadon and Schmidt have been appointed to serve on behalf of this House on the Special Joint Committee created to review Term 17 of the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada;
And that Messrs. Baker, Bellehumeur, Doyle and Kenney be associate members of the said Committee.
ATTEST:
ROBERT MARLEAU
The Clerk of the House of Commons
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hébert:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.